She’s a pop princess of old, a classic chevrolet with her top off, Barbie pink and rimmed with sugar. Her illustrious career has spanned expansive personas, worlds and universes. From writing jingles for laundry detergent adverts as a teen to touring the world, she’s clawed her dreams into reality. And with every rotation of the Earth — with every evolutionary cycle — she’s continued to push the limits of possibility. Experimenting with sounds of the fourth-kind, characters with dark desires and devilish fashion choices — she rips open continuums between time and space; between heaven and hell.
Interview taken from METAL Magazine issue 51. Adapted for the online version. Order your copy here.
Her voice bops on top of brain-scratching SOPHIE rhythms; her and Paris Hilton want Prada and Dior; she unlocks your love with Charli xcx all over TikTok. And with poetic reverberations that’d make even the most pearl-clutching WASPs wet between their legs, she really makes you think: “Am I a slut? Is everyone?”
Despite being catapulted into extreme fame — and extreme vitriol — following her Grammy-winning song with Sam Smith and a protest-inducing satanic performance, she remains unfazed and totally herself. True, she’s no stranger to the limelight. Growing up a young trans girl in Germany, she transitioned in the public eye, and was dubbed the youngest transgender person ever by multiple media outlets. Years of bullying, isolation and fetishisation would follow. Yet, through it all, she’s held onto an unshakeable inner belief that still propels her forward today. And that allows her to keep growing into her most true and authentic self — even as it perpetually shifts and morphs. Today, a vocal advocate for the safety, rights and dignity of trans+ people, she holds her fans’ fears and dreams close to her heart.
She’s a superpower bitch. She’s listening to the poetry of nature. She’s Kim Petras.
I wanted to chat to you a little bit to begin with, about all of the different characters and personas that you’ve held and evolved through over the course of your career. It’s super interesting to see the transition between them and how they occupy these worlds that you create through your albums. I was wondering if you were up for talking me through some of them — what did they mean to you?
There’s always been a level of escapism for me with music. I think that’s what prompted me to become a writer and be interested in pop music, because it helped me escape from my life. I’m from a little town in Germany, and I was just always wanting to go to the big city, live life and meet people who are like me. Whenever I felt sad as a teenager, I would just listen to pop music or put on pop music videos. So I think my music has enabled me to be a more confident version of myself. My personality and my characters intersect a lot, and honestly I think I created all of them so I could be them on stage. Also, my fans inspire my concepts back to me now.
Slut Pop is kind of a love letter to the Twitter twink, you know? I was really inspired to make something that they’d want to blast in their pink convertibles. And then, of course, there’s the darker side of me, with an obsession with horror movies. I watched horror movies way too early, and they inspired me sonically a lot. A lot of horror movie soundtracks are probably my favourite stuff to listen to while I just hang out or sketch stuff and try to get inspired. Turn Off The Light is inspired by that. I’ve always needed to make an album that feels like that. Elvira was my blueprint, who I also have on the album, which I’m still really honoured and amazed by. She’s kind of a Halloween and horror icon! And then, of course, the beginning of me was this bratty girl that gets whatever she wants, does whatever with whoever and doesn’t care. A lot of these are things that I lack sometimes in my personal life. I wish I was a little crazier most of the time than I am.
That makes so much sense! Also Slut Pop is definitely for blasting in your pink convertible, love that. You mention how pop music was escapism in your childhood. I know you experienced a childhood that felt a bit out of your control at times — although I am glad that you had supportive parents when it came to your transness. Do you think your morphing characterisation is also a way for you to claim autonomy and control?
Yeah, totally. I think that’s a huge part of escapism. I was always a little alienated in my personal life, because I was very publicly trans, which made people have a preconceived idea of who I am. Because, for some reason, a lot of people have all these ideas in their head before they even meet a trans person. Or they judge your mental state, or judge your appearance. Since I was a trans kid, I was really used to people already having decided for themselves, “am I okay with trans people or am I not?”. And so my music became where I emphasise the things that I think make me special as a person, and have nothing to do with any of that stuff. I went from growing up feeling like an alien in every single room I was in to becoming a really isolated person, making music by myself all the time. And so, especially in my younger years, it really mattered to me to prove to people that, first of all, I am an artist. And then also that I can be a million things — that I’m not just one thing, because nobody is. I’m still on that little journey of creating more characters, which are in essence me and parts of myself that I like to call characters, because it’s more detached from me as a person.
Yeah, it feels kind of safer, I guess. I think especially as queer and or trans people, the creativity that we put out in the world is such an aspect of the personal self as well. I feel like this process is partly why there have been so many genre-defining and shifting queer and trans artists throughout history and because when your voice is suppressed, you have even more of a desire to have yourself heard. SOPHIE, for example, I feel like she was able to access these soundscapes that feel otherworldly because she just communicated what was already inside her. Do you feel that your trans experience has had — or still has — an impact on your capacity for creative output?
Yeah, it’s huge. I think it’s this hope that there’s someone out there who understands you. Especially if you feel like this freaky thing to many people. At least I was in the time that I grew up. I’m really happy that it’s changed so much for the next generation. But I definitely think it stems from finding like-minded people. I mean, that’s really all I wanted. That was my hope with the music, that I found people who understood that world that I go to, that safe space for me. I think for SOPHIE the same thing existed. I do think that feeling suppressed can make you feel like you want to scream stuff even louder. But, for me, I think it mostly stems from a hope of understanding the little weird universe that we all have.
Yeah, and trying to share it with other people so that they might also understand themselves, I guess.
Yeah, for sure, because you’re also very much a mirror to people as an artist and a performer. That’s how I felt when I watched Madonna on tour for the first time. There were qualities about her that I wanted, that I related to so much, that they became a little bit of me. And that’s happened with all of the impactful artists in my life that I love. It’s hard to like, make that sound smart, but yeah.
No, it makes total sense. We’re all amalgamations of things that have impacted us anyway, but even more so our creativity sometimes. I love that. Speaking of characters and transness, do you relate to the terminology around trans women and dolls? Obviously, the use of doll has always spoken to a camp femininity. But is there also something there around the desire to occupy endless personas and hold endless possibilities (like Barbie and all her looks and jobs)?
Yeah, I love the term the dolls, one million percent. When I was a kid and I found out that trans girls are also called dolls, I was like, okay, that feels kind of uplifting and cute. But now that it’s such a popular term, I feel like it also loses a bit of its club mentality. Because it used to be a secret terminology, which I like. But now I can use it in songs, which comes in so handy! So that’s pretty incredible.
Oh, and another thing about constantly reinventing. When I think of Madonna, I definitely think of reinvention, and when I think of Cher, when I think of Lady Gaga, and when I think of Bowie, even Blondie. I recently found out that Blondie had a brunette era that I had no idea about. She has a music video where she’s brunette, it blew my mind. I think reinvention is a part of being an artist and having your finger on the pulse. It’s as if what you feel is out there in the universe, and you just have to grab it and put it together. You naturally change all the time as a human, and that’s a great thing. I’ve always really appreciated Prince too, for that reason. He had a million voices that he would use and little characters that he vocally expressed in his music. And I would say the same thing for Michael Jackson and for Freddie Mercury, that they just all have these different characters that help tell the story. Because I feel like no one is just one thing. Honestly, anything that stays the same for too long feels stagnant to me. So, my goal is to kind of always change and evolve. And yes, be a doll.
I love that! Also I feel like there’s so much storytelling potential with the music, as you said, especially as you were talking about horror soundtracks, I feel like, if you have an affinity for music that tells stories, like soundtracks do, then characters become even more important. Speaking of evolution and Prince, I read an interview where you shared, “I think of ageing like Prince did, which is, I don’t.” I was wondering how you feel about that — do you still feel that way?
Yes, I think that people have this obsession with age. I remember turning 18 and crying because I thought my chance of being a pop star was over. I think it’s really toxic to define yourself by what people think you should be doing at any point in your life, regardless of your age. I’m super pissed at the world still, for — I’m talking about Madonna a lot — for how they treat Madonna because she’s making art at whatever age. She’s an amazing artist, like why can’t you just shut up about it? I swore to myself when I was around 18, that I’m just not going to let what people think I should be at any age affect my life. People say I did stuff too young, that I should have waited a couple years. So I just have an aversion to it. And I especially hate how people treat women regarding age. I think it’s disgusting, and I’m super against it.
Yeah, it’s an important message and perspective to have, and I feel like it’s amazing that, at 18, you were already like, “fuck what people think I should be doing at different ages.” Despite how far we kind of say that we’ve come in terms of gender equality, there’s still so much pressure for women to settle down and have families. Even partygirl Charli xcx’s song, I think about it all the time, talks about this internalised desire. Do you ever feel pressured to stop living your life a certain way and settle down?
I was always like, fuck what everyone thinks about me, I’m just going to live my life the way I want to, and I encourage that for everyone. I think it’s beautiful to settle down and have a family. It’s a luxury I won’t have in life, and I’ve made peace with that. I like guys, and I’m not biologically able to have kids with guys. But I’ve always been like, I can totally adopt, that would be great. I think adoption is a great thing. But I don’t know if I’ll ever really feel like it. My art and my friends and music — just living and breathing art — they’re the most fulfilling things I have in my life.
That’s beautiful and really powerful to hold that kind of space for yourself. To know what you want to offer and share with the world but also protect yourself in the process. You’ve spoken about how your Slut Pop persona also helped you on your own journey with claiming and occupying your sexuality. What power do you find in being outwardly sex positive and portraying yourself as confident and unashamed?
When I was younger, all that stuff was so hard for me. I was really not comfortable with sex until I made some changes later in life that allowed me to enjoy sex. But my experiences with it were kind of so traumatic and just really scary.
Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that.
Honestly, I’ve always wished it would have been fun because I think sex is like the coolest thing in the world. And if I’d had some better experiences in life and people had treated me differently in my first sexual experiences, I would have been happier. So that was the kind of thing I would have needed to hear as a teenager, when all that stuff starts happening and it’s really confusing. The more you talk about sex the less fetishised trans women become, because then it’s just something that we talk about. It’s not this secret thing, which is what I experienced. I would have loved Slut Pop in my sexual awakening phase. So I wanted to give that to people, and to trans people and trans women in particular.
It’s really important and beautiful. And I feel like there’s also power in you being a visible person in the creative world, being outwardly sex positive when we still live in quite a puritanical society. I mean, not only is sex education not inclusive, but it’s also still, as you were talking about, really shame-filled for all kinds of people.
I’ve always been very against keeping knowledge from people. I hated sex education in school, I felt completely not included. I hope that’s changing, or maybe it’s not, you know, parents decide what their kids discover. But I think that protecting people from knowledge is really scary and doesn’t do anyone any service. Because the more you learn about life and different situations, the more empathetic and cool you become as a person.
“My goal is to kind of always change and evolve. And yes, be a doll.”
Yeah, and I think people are so scared of feeling like everything they’ve known to be true or known to be compulsory is actually not the case, because then I feel like either their ego is bruised, or perhaps it’s too scary to acknowledge the fact that maybe they had a choice all along.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or it shows them something about themselves that they aren’t comfortable with. But people I like don’t go around the world judging other people’s choices and experiences constantly. I hate how harshly people judge other people. Also, sometimes I do wonder how much of that judgement is about stuff that they wouldn’t even care about, except for wanting drama, or wanting to post controversial opinions online. Like, how much does it really matter to actual people?
Yeah, we can definitely get sucked into the online discourse, can’t we? I feel like every year there’s this repetitive discourse. The one that comes to mind is, “should kink be allowed at Pride parades?” At some point I was like, I don’t actually know anyone who has a problem with this. It just feels like a manufactured debate and a moral panic online. And unfortunately, that sometimes goes really far. Like the levels of transphobia that we’re seeing are also normalised by online discourse.
I mean, on some level it’s good that people talk about it. Because my experiences have always involved trans women being killed all the time, just because I was on forums. But this violence against trans women has existed for my entire life. And now finally there’s actual attention being paid to it. People are seeing that you can care about and show that a trans woman was murdered, it’s finally in the media. So as much as there’s so much hate and awful things out there, at least some media outlets and people finally talk about justice for some of these trans women.
Yeah, that’s true. And also quite hopeful to hear. Because in my experience of the grassroots LGBTQ+ activism scene in London, newer groups formed by younger queers tend to lean more cynical, partly because this rage is what powers the demand for better, but partly because there’s some misunderstanding of the historical context within which we’re in. Because while I’m really happy that there is more education and knowledge, I also have understood that perhaps times were better for some trans people when they weren’t being talked about so much in the media all the time, because then they could just live their lives and not be clocked in the streets.
Yeah, totally. Well, I also think it depends on the person, you know, and on their circumstance and the life that they live. I do think it’s pretty incredible, seeing people like Hunter Schafer or Nava Mau in Baby Reindeer, just being. I think it’s cool and powerful that it’s no big deal that these talented actors are trans. But I also understand that it’s really overwhelming how much people judge your steps and your journey as a trans person. Since I was 12, I’ve had people telling me: “Do this surgery. Don’t do this surgery.” But seeing other trans people who have found their way is a cool thing.
No, we shouldn’t have to ask for attention from the world. But things weren’t better before. Yeah, let’s go back to being everyone’s dirty little secret or someone people don’t care about getting murdered? That’s not something we want to go back to. I think it’s good that people are forced to talk about trans people as normal people. I think we’re on a pretty good track, even though it feels really awful sometimes, and even though there are massive problems, especially in the US. Like laws about who is allowed to transition. I think that’s really scary. I’m scared for my fans.
No, that makes total sense. Thank you for sharing. The current legislative climate in the US is super scary, especially for young people. Transphobic rhetoric loves to focus on detransition, despite there being such low rates, and also question the assuredness of young trans people. Do you think we give young people enough space to be confused and to not know — to play and figure it out as they go along? What message would you like to give to young trans people today who may be struggling?
Well, if you do, you do, and if you don’t, you don’t. Accept where you’re at and move with what you know. Because no decision that you make is going to fix your life — life is always going to be hard. Yes, I always knew that I was trans. And I’m super happy that people around me let me do my thing and let me live my life. But it’s also a personal thing, so don’t ever feel pressured to be like anyone else. Don’t ever feel like it’s too late. Don’t ever feel like it’s too early, either. And a lot of the mistakes that people make sometimes bring them to themselves. It’s all about the journey and finding yourself, and there are no wrongs and no rights. I still get judged for it — and yes, I was really young but, for me, it was the right choice.
Yeah, it clearly was right for you! And even if it hadn’t been, that’d also be ok. As marginalised people, we can be afraid to make mistakes because we feel like we have to be perfect just to be accepted. Also, it’s true that trans women are scapegoated — one person’s mistake gets used to demonise a whole group of people. Do you struggle with striving for perfection? And what role have mistakes played in your journey to being who you are today?
Mistakes have always made me better. My outfits were so terrible as a kid, I found that I had to learn, I had no choice. Sometimes your mistakes and your embarrassing past make you figure it out and push you towards where you want to be. So, as much as sometimes I hate myself for certain decisions I’ve made, or I think that something could have been done better, learning from mistakes is what brings you to the stuff that does work and that you do like. So just live your life and make your mistakes, because they bring you closer to who you are meant to be. And now I dress well, so yeah!
You totally do! Returning to what we were first talking about, the process of evolution has to involve some trial and error, right? But it must be especially hard to make mistakes being so in the limelight. I’m thinking about the backlash to your performance of Unholy with Sam Smith at the Grammys — it must have been really weird to be under such a microscope. How does it feel for people to be protesting your concerts, especially in connection with religion? Do you think this is just a mistake on their part or something more?
With the Grammys, honestly that was judgement on another level. And it felt really strange. It felt like a lot of people were suddenly not fucking with me anymore, just because that happened. But the backlash was pretty fun for me. I like provoking people. And I’ve always been a big fan of that whole aesthetic — it’s beautiful to me — the classic Dante’s Inferno. I mean, the song is about infidelity, we’re talking about a guy cheating on his girl, and thinking that her gay friends are not going to tell her.
Yeah, totally, it checks out, right?
It just felt really right, and it made a lot of sense with the song. It also made sense to do it at the Grammys, where everyone’s like, “oh, Hollywood is the centre of the Illuminati.” It was a really dramatic and cool thing to do, in my opinion, and I don’t regret it one bit. And Slut Pop is so explicit because it’s fun and it’s conceptual, and anyone who doesn’t get that is just missing the point. So, I don’t really care if people have a problem with that because it’s a conceptual EP where I say the sluttiest things that come to my mind. And I’m not one bit ashamed of that. It’s funny because my sister got a lot of calls from high school friends, and they were like, “Aren’t you embarrassed that Kim dropped a sex tape?” (laughing) My sister’s really cool, so she was like, “No, I fucking love it.”
That’s really funny. Love your sister for that!
And it’s almost like they’re feeding into the performance art of it all. Like, that’s the point. The fact that there’s such outrage is part of the point. And with Unholy, too. It’s fun to push people, and what is acceptable and what is not. And I think that’s kind of weirdly been my purpose on earth, to push that. Asking what’s art, what’s dreams, and what’s reality? All those things are extremely interesting to me because that’s also how we understand ourselves and our environment.
Do you ever find yourself getting sucked into any conspiracy theories?
I joke that I’m a flat earther, and that’s a joke I’m not going to give up. I really want to believe in supernatural stuff, but I’ve never experienced anything supernatural. But I love that stuff so much, and I actively seek it and want to know more about it, but aliens don’t show up for me. They’re like, “she wants to see us so bad, we’re not going to give it to her.” And maybe that’s my protection strategy. Like Jennifer Love Hewitt in I Know What You Did Last Summer, screaming for the killer to get her.
It’s kind of like Slut Pop meets horror movie. Being so slutty and desperate for the ghosts that they’re like, “Actually, this isn’t fun for me anymore.”
Yeah, that’s my advice on ghost sightings, just run towards them.
(Laughing) Okay, perfect, that’s really good advice. Speaking of the unknown, I know you have a complicated relationship with religion and spirituality, where do you find spirituality and connection today? What does it look like for you?
I’ve been seeking my own connection to self through beauty and art and being interested in people’s experiences. I’m constantly inspired by people that find their own philosophies. And that seek their own adventures and spiritual awakenings. So, I find it in moments, in being present and just letting things be beautiful. In letting things exist and not fighting against anything; in choosing to see the ugly and the flaws in everything.
I mean, what even is a flaw, right?
Yes, sometimes the flaws make something beautiful. I live for inspiration and ideas. I think that’s when I feel most touched by the gods, when melodies and words pop into my mind and become songs. So that’s my connection to the Universe, the little melodies and things coming to me all the time.
I’ve previously said that maybe I would have been religious had religion accepted me. But now, I honestly just admire people that don’t need a group mentality — that go their own way, and have their own ideas and original minds. I think there are a lot of really beautiful ideas in religion, and I have got inspired by Buddhism and the philosophies in the Bible, because they’re ultimately very classic stories and cautionary tales on what’s right and what’s wrong. And I agree with a lot of those things, but I don’t really feel like I’m missing out on anything. But I’ll let you know next time!
That’s so lovely that your melodies are your connection to something greater than us. What’ve you recently heard in your environment that has inspired you? What melodies have passed through your mind?
That’s a really cool question. I’m currently reading Big Sur by Jack Kerouac, and there’s a lot about him sitting by the ocean and making poetry out of what he hears. Just listening to the sounds that the ocean makes and the words that they whisper to him, and the rhythms that the waves crashing against the rocks bring to him. He spends hours documenting what the sea has to tell him. And I just thought that’s so beautiful and have been thinking about it a lot.
I’ve been outside more and just listening to the trees and birds and being a little more present to the actual sounds around me. In the past, I’ve been super inspired by synthetic sounds. I liked life more when it was synthesised, when you took natural sounds and made them seem like they’re from space. But recently, I’ve been really interested in the rhythms of life, and the poetry and the sounds in nature. So that’s funny you asked that question. It’s very in my mind currently with my new music. This strange way of making philosophy out of the world. So yeah, listen to nature, kids.
Sweater CPLUS SERIES, shirt HOMME GIRLS.
Full look GUCCI.
Jacket LOEWE, bra FLEUR DU MAL, knickers COLLINA STRADA.
Top BALENCIAGA, underwear HOMME GIRLS.
Top THE SOCIETY ARCHIVE, shorts LUCILA SAFDIE.
Top PUPPETS AND PUPPETS.
Coat COACH, bodysuit BODE.
Jumper and shoes MARC JACOBS, underwear AGENT PROVOCATEUR.
