Probably because I’m black. When I was hired for Vogue, I was very skinny – I’m overweight now –, tall and handsome, now that I can look back at the pictures. That was in 1983 and I think she was intimidated by my uniqueness, my boldness, being an outrider and disruptor – I wasn’t like a violent protester, I wasn’t screaming or anything – but I think she was intimidated by me. She didn’t know what to make of a black man that wanted to be in fashion, although I wasn’t the first one. She had worked with the Baron of Gunzburg – who was an editor at Vogue – for years!
She didn’t get me but Anna Wintour did, and she was the creative director. So when I got the job at Vogue, and Ms Mirabella was the Editor-in-Chief, I had to walk on eggshells. I respected her, we worked well on a professional level, but she did not get me. I’ll give an example: one season, Yves Saint Laurent showed feathers in haute couture (on dresses, girls, capes). When I went back to the States, I decided to do a story in my column about the influence of African traditional dressing in the work of Yves Saint Laurent. If you’ve studied Picasso in general or The Demoiselles d’Avignon in particular, you know his painting was inspired by African masks. And if you’ve studied Giacometti, his first small modernist sculptures were inspired by African sculptures as well. So it made sense to me to write that piece, as I was reminded of these pictures of African men walking around, photographed by Leni Riefenstahl, with the same feathers.
I went to Mirabella’s office and I said that, for the column, we could use a beautiful picture taken by Riefenstahl of a tall, black, African man with feathers, and put it next to a picture of Yves Saint Laurent’s model because it was inspired by this – and I wasn’t being catty or a bitch when saying so, this is what I really thought. There was silence. “What did I do to deserve this underground influence?”, she said; “You come from Andy Warhol! What did I do to deserve this?” In other words, it was kind of insensitive way of accusing me of being too radical, and I wasn’t being radical at all! I went back to Anna Wintour’s office and she said, “Don’t worry, André”, and she and I became friends. So I started to do all my work through her and I would flood my ideas through her.

Queen Kong!

Was saying that I was sleeping around with everyone! (All of the major designers in Paris). And that was a racist, awful thing to say. I actually quit my job for that reason. I went to the American embassy and had my letter notarised because I didn’t want them to say they fired me because I was stealing. That’s what they say about black people, you know, when they want to bring us down. So I sent my letter of resignation. I kept all of that bottled up in me, as I’m an only child – growing up, I didn’t have many people to talk to, as I only had a few good friends.
But, as you can see, racism is everywhere, it happens all the time in America. It’s a shadow that walks behind you no matter who you are – man, woman, or child. You can be Toni Morrison with a Nobel literature prize and there’s still a shadow of racism. If you are black, racism prevails in your life on a daily level.

Exactly! But less in Europe because when the black models came in the ‘70s, they went to Paris and they were celebrated. The black model who struggled in New York would come to Paris and would get an Yves Saint Laurent show, as they would always cast them. There was racism as, of course, negritude is a French term from French literature. But there were people like Josephine Baker who came to Paris in order to exile. James Baldwin moved to Paris, and even Nina Simone did so because they couldn’t take it anymore in America.

I internalised it, I kept it bottled up inside of me. I kept quiet and focused on doing my work. I held my head high as I had confidence. But I just kept everything to myself – and that isn’t healthy.

Yes! I finally opened it all up in the film, but I didn’t even write about it in my memoir.

Through faith: the sense that comes from church as well as traditional values. I don’t get to see my ancestors anymore (my great grandmother, aunts and uncles) but they were role models for me growing up. I had an uncle who taught me how to tie my necktie; do you know how important that was? He was the one that taught me how to do a Windsor knot. I watched them as examples. They struggled, they were very modest people, they were not poor – but they were not rich; we were lower-middle class.
I’ve watched my great grandmother go out and kill a chicken to cook, and that’s a very strong thing for a woman to do. But that’s what pioneer women did! And I watched her wash clothes in a boiling pot – a big, witch’s pot – where the water was so hot you couldn’t actually put your hand in it. But she’d take a stick from a tree and would stir the clothes until they became white. She’d put them in a line to air and it was so fresh, it was so incredible when they would dry in the air. I was lucky enough to be brought up in a church environment. It was a family church where all of my relatives would go, so I was very much always surrounded by love.

I think that these brands have to find their way, as they are not being supported by big houses. If they have something to say, it will come to the forefront. There is always someone who spots people who have talent. You may not be aware of it at the time, but it will happen, one way or another this always happens. I also think that what’s happening today in fashion is good. It’s good that Virgil Abloh is in Louis Vuitton and that Edward Enninful is at British Vogue. It’s good that Balenciaga has this disruptive designer, Demna Gvasalia, who also does Vêtements. Also, Raf Simons went from Paris to New York to work for Calvin Klein. I think that he is really big in the city – he’s actually huge, although he was already huge in Paris working at Dior Couture and even on his own. Everything will come into its own, eventually.

Until now because Gucci realised that and gave him a partnership. Dapper Dan is the unsung hero of American fashion. A black man in American fashion. He had a store for ten years and it was closed because he was prosecuted for doing knock-offs of logos of big fashion houses. When he closed, he went underground but he would still design clothes for people like Jay Z. And he’s an amazing designer! Instinctive, self-taught, self-made, visionary.
I just met him this year for the very first time and he’s an incredible human being. He’s successful, has two children who are making a movie about his life, and are also writing a book about him – all because of the Gucci partnership. Because they realised that there are so many looks inspired by Dapper Dan and so they gave him the credit. Someone had the right idea and supported that brand; the way Louis Vuitton has supported Virgil, by having him do the menswear line. So, slowly, the blacks are coming up to the forefront. Slowly… It’s a meal that’s taking a slow time to cook.

It’s a slow burn.

Perhaps another generation! You never know because of the way the world is going. Look at America: we had made progress with Obama but now we’re going backwards again, so people don’t embrace diversity anymore. This administration is against Muslims and anything that does not look white. Therefore, white people – who are running the world anyway – are not going to embrace that diversity. I think it’s embraced by Hollywood and fashion – to a degree. There’s diversity in trans models and in people like Ashley Graham, but it’s a slow process. It’s disturbing, but it’s the way it is!

It’s very disturbing and sad.

You can only hope! You can only sit on hope – it’s a tightrope, but that’s all you can do.

I really don’t care, do you? (Laughs). Listen, perhaps it was not the appropriate thing to put on for where she was going but, for example, she went to visit the victims of the hurricane in Texas while wearing stilettos. So that’s who she is. She wears stilettos everywhere, even in the grass, you wonder how her feet don’t sink. She has some DNA in her feet as she wears them everywhere, there’s something about it.

Never give up your dream whatever your dream is. And do your homework for whatever you’re working in. If you’re a shoe designer, read all about the great shoe designers, all of the moods and trends from the 18th century forward, or 16th century backwards. Just have the knowledge, knowledge is power. Do your homework and research, you have to know what came before you in whatever sphere you are in. If you’re in makeup, know that Pat McGrath is the queen of makeup; if you’re a hairstylist, know about the hairstylists; if you want to design furs, you have to know about Fendi.
It’s all there for you, homework will give you confidence and power. You don’t just walk in unprepared. If you want to work for a designer that dresses a lot of musicians, go do the homework on Versace – they dress all the girls for the red carpet, now more than ever, and the brand has a legacy and a look. So I say, never give up your dream and do your homework.