Rina Sawayama

I’m not sure, really! A lot of musicians don’t really make art that is talking about their politics. The kind of music I like is pop music, and not a lot of pop people write directly about politics, it’s usually about love or something else. I’ve been really enjoying listening to Alanis Morissette at the moment just because she really captured the female anger. But yeah! It’s not like band aid, before where we made songs about saving the world. That’s not considered cool anymore.

I’m not afraid, but I always have to make sure I’ve got the facts right. The platforms I speak from have no regulations about truth, so I don’t really want to add to any more misinformation. I just have to be careful. But, at the same time, I feel like my role as a singer and writer is to reflect the times in my work. I speak out about stuff on social media from time to time, but I know that I’m speaking to my fans who all just think the same way as me! I’m aware that it’s not the most effective thing. I try not to share things that are triggering, or anything that is not useful. Just facts, and then how people can help. I try and write about it later on, if that makes any sense!

(Laughs) thank you!

I kind of love it! Whether it’s queering a straight space or injecting a little something that’s not necessarily right for that kind of statement, I like to subvert whatever the meaning is. That song is so tongue in cheek. The production and the melody came at the same time with XS, so I was reflecting what the producer was doing at the time. I remember saying that I want it to be like The Pussycat Dolls, Evanescence or N.E.R.D., but also like Rockstar with that guitar riff; a mix of that – quite chaotic. I guess it would be so easy to make a flex song but it’s just not me, I’m just not that kind of person. I just wanted to take the piss out of Calabasas and the Kardashians, makeup obsessions, YouTubers and stuff like that, while also poking fun at the fact that I’m also part of that system and I can’t escape it.

Oh, god, it’s really hard, a daily struggle! I don’t think I have it down yet at all. During this lockdown I’ve definitely felt like I wanted to buy a lot of things that I don’t need. I just moved into a new house, and have just wanted to buy everything in the name of moving in. It’s hard, and it shouldn’t be up to the individual to solve it. There are little things that you can do, like being a conscious consumer, and I think I am one at the moment. But it’s difficult, especially during lockdown, when I haven’t been on tour and doing my usual thing. With everything getting so disrupted, I’ve tried to focus a lot on just being present and okay with being still.

Definitely. Like putting out this record last year and thinking, cool, but in 2021 I’ll be able to go on tour. I mean, we had that announcement yesterday which looked promising, but things can change. This virus knows no rules, you never know what’s going to happen, but fingers crossed! It’s weird because it has affected the whole world but in very different ways. I think everyone is just trying to keep sane.

Good question! I started out writing R’n'B music, pop R’n’B but leaning towards R’n’B. I’ve always been a huge fan of pop, and I guess that during writing sessions I’ve found the challenge of writing a pop song the most exciting. It’s so hard to write pop, and people think it’s the easiest to write. In my experience it’s one of the hardest genres to write for because there are so many pop writers, so many songs. To try and come up with an original idea is really challenging. If it’s not original, then what’s your take on a tried and tested formula? I’m scared by the number of songs that are out there in the world; there are hundreds, and thousands created every single day. I think on Spotify there are 50,000 songs uploaded every day, it’s wild to think about writing something. I grew up watching and listening to Britney, and I’ve been obsessed with pop stars, with the display of the mastery of the skill – and I’m not saying that other musicians aren’t more skilled. With pop it's very showy, especially for the girls, and I love that so much. I also love how pop has affected and given so much positive influence on the queer community. In a sense, Beyoncé and Britney gave me so much confidence.

I think allies are super important. We’re in an era right now where we’re privileged to even be questioning the need for allies. That is such a privilege compared to the 1980s, when the gay community didn’t even have allies! It was bad enough during the AIDS crisis. Obviously, the community was campaigning, but allies were the bridge between them and those who were stigmatising the queer community. I see a lot of people criticising Ariana for headlining Manchester pride or whatever, I really don’t believe in it. Of course, I believe in amplifying queer voices and queer artists, but at the same time I do think that it’s a real privilege that we can think that allies aren’t important anymore. Coming from there, I love being in this community of weirdos, and I feel so happy to be a part of the voice, for sure. I think that any voice that lends itself to the community is important, whether they are part of the community or not.

Wow, that’s a big question! I mean, how do men expect women to act when we haven’t had an education on how to be our own confident selves? What is feminine strength? It’s a very recent conversation. No matter how cringe the Girl Boss movement is, it’s important to galvanise ourselves and realise there’s a new version of confidence. It’s a tough one, because I think that the female confidence that gets criticised is the type that we spoke about just now concerning productivity or the workplace. I’ve definitely met people who I’ve thought were a bit off, but I always have to check myself for wondering whether that woman was confident or arrogant. I ask myself whether I think I am complaining, or, am I thinking about this person because of their tone, or what they’re saying? In Hollywood and everywhere the kind of confidence we often see is that kind of masculine confidence. Comme des Garçons was kind of inspired by when Beto O’Rourke lost the Texas primaries in 2018. He said that he was born to do this, born to win. I read that and thought, what fucking woman says that?! No woman would say that, that’s an insane, psychopath thing to say. So, I found it a very interesting thing to write about.

It’s just such an age-old criticism of women, isn’t it? That we can’t do what we want with our bodies. Obviously, I disagree with it and think it’s stupid, but I also think it’s interesting how feminism isn’t just one opinion. I always think this about the queer community, we’re such a diverse group of people. If it sparks conversation and makes people think about the origins of sexuality and stuff like that, then that’s really important. I don’t like when it leads to cancelling or cyber-bullying in the name of feminism – it is harmful and it feels like taking a couple of steps back. I remember people criticising Christina Aguilera so much for her sexuality. In a recent interview she was looking through her old outfits, and when it got to her Xtina stage she said that she was feeling really liberated, feeling like a woman, feeling really confident, so she just wanted to look like that. It’s funny because people not only criticise the woman for looking a certain way, but they also critique the fact that they’re being controlled by someone else to look like that. The label’s making them look like that. I get that there is this sinister patriarchy but what if the woman actually just wants to do that? What if? What does that mean? I think it’s a constant conversation. I always try listen to different opinions – especially these days because I think echo chambers are extremely harmful. People should graduate from echo chambers when they’re ready, and I’m trying to do that myself. There is no harm in knowing why some people do or say certain things.

Adam Hann, Clarence Clarity and I were noodling around one day and had been working on Dynasty the day before, so we thought it would make sense to have something a bit heavier. I have a great relationship with him where we suggest things that might be insane, but we try it anyway. So, we tried it and the song came together in two hours or something, ridiculous. I thought it would be an interlude. When I showed it to people close to me they said that this had to be a single, especially because I’d been away a while. I thought it was a great idea and took it to the several labels I was talking to at the time. There was one label that we were in negotiation with and there were lawyers involved in signing a deal. We were discussing video budgets and stuff, and as soon as they heard that song they dropped the proceedings of the contract. On paper it’s fine, like fuck you, but it cost me so much in legal bills – nearly five figures. The fact that they didn’t like the song cost me. If I see that label at a party, I’m going to be like, hey, invoice! Feel free to pay it, thank you. It’s just so rude! I’m sure I’m not the first person, and I’m lucky because I signed to another label which was a much better fit for me anyway, but this must happen to so many others – the label changes their minds and then, who’s going to pay the lawyer? It’s really bad practice, it’s exploitative and awful. I will be having a word with that person if I ever see them in real life!

I was lucky because I’m older, which is stupid because I’m only 30. But that’s considered old compared to the rest of the industry, girls get signed so young. I knew my worth and had a manager who was not going to pimp me out for some shit deal that I’d be locked into for three years. He believed in my worth, my writing and the record, even when it wasn’t finished – he really had so much belief. At some point I was struggling financially to fund the thing, because it costs so much money, and together we decided that we weren’t going to sign until it was the right deal. We were looking for an album partner for about two years, which doesn’t include the countless single deals that we were entertaining before that. It’s been years in the making and I’m lucky to have a manager like that because managers can be short-sighted; they’ll sign a deal so they can get a commission for the advance. I’m really lucky. And it’s weird, because it took so many years to arrive at Dirty Hit. The massive thing was, in our first meeting I met the head of Dirty Hit, and that doesn’t happen with major labels, ever. We had that direct connection from the get-go. He wanted to understand my project, and so I’m really lucky. Labels are what they are, they’re trying to make money off artists, and that’s not a bad thing. You can make a lot of money as well, but if you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into it can be really stressful. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t go with a major label, because I’ve seen so many people who have signed with a team to a major label and then they’ll leave. For major labels, the turnover for employees is unbelievably fast. One person will move to another label within three years, so it’s rare that someone will stay at a major for a long time. I didn’t want to do one album and then have them leave, that would suck! I loved the idea of Adele at XL and XL Recordings, an indie label. She was the biggest star of XL and that model appealed to me more than being a tiny, tiny fish in a big, big pond at a major label.

Oh yeah, 100%. Obviously, I’ve been through several different managers, but me and my manager Will Frost have been working together for about five or six years now. He’s been there ever since no one knew who I was. It’s hard because managers have to earn money too, but to find the manager who is willing to go poor themselves just so you can get a good deal at the end of it is amazing. It’s very rare.

I would say that thankfully they’re quite different. As a model you are just a vehicle to carry the idea to the photo. You’re not the star, you shouldn’t be demanding. You’re just there to make the photographer or the clients happy with the images – there’s always that hierarchy. It’s also so devoid of creativity! Luckily, I wasn’t a runway model, so I didn’t have to do too many castings, but fucking hell. I have a friend who’s an actor, and the struggle that actors go through is worse than with modeling. With modelling, you don’t take it too personally because your look just doesn’t fit with their vision. Whereas as an actor you have to develop a skill on top of that, so when you’re rejected, you’re rejected for your skill and your look – it’s unbelievably tough. With music I would say that the creativity is much more freeing, you have much more agency over your own destiny –which sounds so corny but it’s true. You can make your own songs, whereas you can’t make your own campaign as a model – you’re co-dependent on agents and multiple extraneous factors. Thank God they’re so different. The type of modeling I was doing was street-cast modelling, so they really cared about social media. What I learnt was to be shameless about plugging yourself online! I definitely learnt about marketing and self-branding through modelling. Luckily, the similarities stop there. I have so much respect for models, by the way! I don’t know how they do it, it’s the hardest, most brutal industry.

I know! I love people like Coco Rocha, who’s an incredible model but she also runs a model camp to teach people how to pose. I think posing is so hard, it’s one of the big skills for models. I think people think that you just stand in front of the camera and look beautiful, but there’s so much more technique to standing and posing. All the really big models are just absolute pros at doing that and they must have unbelievable endurance to keep doing fashion weeks, because it’s hardcore. The one thing for me was that I do not get pleasure out of people telling me I’m beautiful. It’s great the first couple of times, because that’s the ultimate compliment, right? You’re so beautiful – as a woman, from a young age you’re taught that’s your currency. After a certain point of doing modelling, I didn’t want that at all. I want to be told that I’m skilled! That I’m so good at writing, acting. If somebody told me I was good at posing I was very happy. I’m sure there are a lot of women who feel that way, that being told you’re beautiful isn’t great. Sometimes it’s nice, but when it’s every single day, and that’s your job... That wasn’t for me. It feels very empty.

Yeah, and the idea that beauty fades. So, you can be a model for a limited amount of time, whereas a skill improves over time. I’m sure some people love being told they’re beautiful all the time, but not me!

I don’t put too much pressure on myself on that side because I trust that I’ll do the right thing. I guess I try not to think about it too much, but when I do, I think about it in a really positive way. It’s amazing when I get messages from people who have come out because of my songs, and that my music is something that has directly affected people’s lives. If I can make people feel seen, or if my song got them through lockdown or whatever, that’s incredible! On a personal level – because it just freaks me out to think about too big a picture – I feel that I’m like most people in that way, I would love to be like, I want to be the biggest popstar in the world! But to me, if the song’s not great then I don’t want to be that popstar behind that bad song that gets big. I would rather focus on being an incredible writer, an incredible storyteller. I focus more on that because it’s something I can control; I can’t control people’s perception of me or my music. To try and not freak myself out I just stick with writing, and what I would like to get across sonically. That doesn’t mean to say I’m not eternally grateful, oh my gosh – I’m always so floored that people listen to my music! Honestly, since the last year that I’ve been doing these interviews... The journalists did do their research, but the kind of insight and the amazing questions people come with have really changed. People are so much more interested in what I do now, and I’m super grateful. I’ve seen that through lockdown, and that’s the only kind of metric that I have in terms of human interaction: people who come with much more insightful questions, people who are fans of my music, which didn’t really happen that much before! It’s been a big change.

It’s awful! So awful! I feel stuck, I really feel stuck. I’m struggling with motivation, with productivity. To me there’s a line, and I decided that I wasn’t going to do shoots unless it’s super necessary. Some people go ahead with their lives as if nothing is happening, but that to me just felt tone deaf. Technically, because of my industry there are certain things I can’t do because I need to leave the house or do it with other people. I’m not a key worker! I’m not going to put people at risk, it’s just not worth it. Because of that decision I’ve just been sitting around trying to plan the next year, while still not knowing what’s going to happen. What I have been doing a lot is trying to work on things that I can control – I’ve been singing loads, reading loads, and anyone who writes knows reading is writing and writing is reading. I’ve got a new piano, I’m so excited and I’ve been teaching myself how to play, keeping fit – doing little things that don’t amount to much but make me happy and keep me sane. I just want to tour so much. I want to play these songs live and get it out of my system so that I can write the next record. It’s weird because in the album cycle I would have toured twice, at least, and done loads of festivals, loads of prides. There were some amazing slots at festivals that people have missed out on that haven’t even announced. I don’t even know if they’re going to happen this year or next year! I’m really lucky, but I’m definitely going through a kind of motivation crisis, for sure.

It’s been really important to me, because I guess I was independent for a long time. It really felt like a group effort: me and the fans trying to make this happen together. I’ve been obsessed with YouTube my whole life and I watch YouTube videos more than I watch TV. I love the format of people democratising knowledge. My producer basically learnt all of production on YouTube, and look at him now, he just does the craziest shit! I believe that knowledge is really important, and I come from an academic background as well so it’s really important for me that knowledge is open. I didn’t come from a world where I was connected, I didn’t know anyone in the industry or how to make money in the industry. My parents just thought that you’re either a billionaire or completely poor in the music industry. I just think if I’m able to break it down and it’s like the sum of all these amazing parts, then I can help others too. I always want to highlight the people I work with – it’s not very, look at me I’m doing so amazingly! It’s the story of how fun it is to collaborate, how funny the director is, the relationship between me and my makeup artist. I just want it to be more about that. What I’ve seen from other people who create behind the scenes content is different. They’re just like, I’m a star, this is me, I’m amazing! We get it, you’re great! But who else is there? Who did your hair? Who did your make up? That story for me is much more interesting. I guess in regard to whether it’s hard to keep writing personal stuff – sometimes it is. Writing is easy, talking about it afterwards is hard. I had one interviewer ask me if there were specific incidents with my dad that were traumatic!

I was like, that’s not okay! Because I bear all on my album people feel like it’s my invitation to do free therapy on me, like some psychoanalysis. I have to draw the line at that. But I will always keep writing personal things. That’s the most interesting sort of writing to me – people who are able to write about something so personal and make it so broad, make it appeal to and talk to so many people. I’m proud of my song Chosen Family for that, for sure. It’s the one I’m proudest to have written, I think.

Aw, thank you! I always imagine it being played live. People throw around the term ‘safe space’ a lot in terms of live settings, and obviously that’s really important. But, for me, my songs are like a safe space, because I feel like I really understand what people are going through, and they’re not based on this idea like, “Oh no! Queer people are persecuted!” It’s like, yeah, we get that. I know that from my friends who’ve been kicked out of the house for coming out, or who haven’t come out to their parents yet and they’re thirty. People have struggled, and I know that so well, I see it. It came from such a genuine place. I’m so happy that people love it. It’s a ballad, but it’s really hard to write a good ballad. I always think about who the character is, who I’m talking about and who I’m saying it to. That’s the thing I always think about. I’m just really proud of that song.

Oh my gosh! I don’t know! I think I’m going to promote healing because I think that there are a lot that people need to heal at the moment, worldwide. I’m going to promote healing, tell stories of healing, of overcoming. And that’s where I’m at. I’ve got everything out of my system with Sawayama. Until I experience new stuff, that’s kind of my goal at the moment. For musicians it’s so important to travel and meet different kinds of people from all over the world to be able to write something that actually resonates. In the absence of that, I’ll just look inward and write songs that heal me and might heal others.