Moses Sumney

Hello! Again.

How’s it going?

I’m great. I’m alive! And well! 

I actually still don’t know how I feel about it yet, because I am still getting to know it. I think I need to listen to it like 30 more times, but I’m kind of excited. I’m really happy that I made it and pushed myself to do something that’s different than what I usually do, where each project is a different approach.

Because it rhymed (laughs).

But apart from that, I just love the nineties, and I miss the 90s. I mean, obviously, I was born in the 90s, but I just think it was the best time. It’s like the Internet was a place of hope and curiosity and it was also just one of the many factors of life. The way we interacted with each other was very visceral and tactile and real. I think the 90s were a time of curiosity, and both hope and doom kind of came together in a beautiful way. I think it was such an exciting time. And sonically I was obviously making this record thinking about making an R&B record – whatever my version of R&B record would be. And I was really inspired by music from the 1990s. And a lot of which is about like, you know missing someone or begging to go back, etc.

Napster was before my time, but I know what it is. I was a LimeWire kid.

Well, I think that nostalgia is a really big part of the human experience. People constantly talk about missing the 50s, the 60s, the 70s and the 80s, whether or not they were alive during that time. I think that we also tend to have an affinity for our childhoods, even if our childhoods were bad, like my childhood wasn’t great. But I think about it, and I’m like, oh, wow! I wanna go back. I think that that’s just part of the human experience, and maybe we kind of erase the bad parts of history in order to keep moving forward. But I do think that you know, ’cause of what I said about the 90s being a time of hope, exploration and curiosity; it was also really the last moments, along with the beginning of the 2000s, that we could kind of really understand each other. In like small, insane ways. Everything now is just a bit much.

I wasn’t scared. I was kind of excited because I felt like my life wasn’t going to be that different. But where I lived in California at the time everyone was afraid of food scarcity. It was a lot like Covid. We went to the supermarket, and everybody was running to get food and stock up, and then we got like many months worth of food and toiletries, and the house was just like full of stuff. And then I remember feeling like this could be fun, like having no electricity. It’s interesting because I didn’t know if it was going to be no electricity, or just like no computers and TV. But I was a kid that liked reading a lot, writing and making stuff up. So, I was kind of excited for it. But it’s interesting, because somewhere in the early 2000s I moved to Ghana.

And many of the things that the Western world were afraid that they would lose in the Y2K, I lost. We didn’t have Internet at a home. So, I used to go to an Internet cafe to use the Internet. And I was only allowed to use it for 1 hour a week. So, every week I would go on the Saturday to the Internet café, I’d email my friends in America and then go home. And knowing that I wouldn’t have Internet again for another week. And it was fine. It was never like, oh, no! and there was not very much television. There were only three TV stations. We would often lose electricity, and sometimes we would go days without it. Sometimes we would go days without water. Not that we couldn’t drink water like you would have to just go to get it. It was strange, but it was just normal. So, it was kind of funny to move from America, where it was like, oh, no, we’re not gonna be able to watch TV, you know, or whatever.

I was 16.

I find everything very difficult. I find having consistent access to the Internet is maybe the worst thing in my life, and I have a very organic relationship with creation. So, when I’m writing or really thinking, if I need to play guitar or whatever I always need to remove myself from the Internet. I know people who write on Google Docs, for example. And I think that’s crazy. Or you have people who go to the studio, and they’re writing lyrics in their notes app, like, I don’t relate to this kind of creation. I think it’s insane.

MS: I know exactly who you’re talking about. 

And that’s the sign that we all see the same things on the Internet. And I also think that’s crazy. I think it’s crazy when people read from their phones.

I think you can write it down (laughs).

But you know, it’s an outdated way of thinking, you know, like the new generation thinks differently. Also, it’s not even just about young people. There are people, my age and your age, who do the same thing.

MS: Well, I like to watch videos of people working out. Mobility. Do you know what that means?

It’s about how mobile your body is, how much you can move your body. It’s flexibility, but it’s really just about like how much range your joints and your limbs have healthily, and there’s people I enjoy watching videos of people who are very good at moving and stretching (laughs).

Sort of yeah, I’m jumping. And then my head is really low. So, it looks like I’m headless and my hands are behind my back, and it’s like slightly acrobatic. But I also enjoy videos of people singing, I really love to watch people sing. What else? Photography. I consume a lot of photos. I’m trying to learn how to be a better photographer. So, I watch a lot of videos about photography and light. Cooking sometimes.

I don’t like it. I’m old school. I just feel like my soul is really not of this time. So, I actually haven’t got that deep into it. I think I could probably use it more. I would probably benefit from learning some AI tools for some of the work I do. It might make my life easier, but I don’t really like it, and I don’t want to get involved. 

I had a talk with like psychic who told me that my soul originated at pre-industrial times. And I really resonated with that. So, I don’t know what period. But like before there were a lot of machines, I think it probably would have been my time.

That’s such a crazy question.

I think maybe there’s a couple of different things in your question, because I think there is a big difference between authenticity and originality.

I think that it’s hard for us to perceive the difference. And I think that they’re different things; authenticity just really means someone is being honest and true to themselves, and originality means someone is coming up with something that is unique and have maybe never been done before. I don’t think that there is true, true, true originality. I do think that everything has already been done, and everything new that is created is a combination. Anything that feels new is a new combination that maybe we haven’t seen before. And it’s something that I really try to pursue in my work is some version of originality. But really when I think I’m trying to pursue originality, what I am actually trying to pursue is authenticity ’cause I’m trying to pursue something that is honest, and I think it’s much easier to make something that’s honest than it is to make something that’s original, but I don’t think it’s easy to make something that’s honest. I think it’s difficult because I think the reason why there is so little originality in our world and all of the arts be it painting, or literature, or music, or the cinematic arts is because capitalism co-opts anything that feels new and unique, you know, even like Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, I think that they were so brilliant. But grunge was supposed to be a countercultural movement, and it very quickly was, you know, leached upon, and turned into like the biggest thing in the world – Kurt Cobain was not supposed to be a pop star.

And then I think we got many versions of Nirvana that were co-opted by capitalism. But that was kind of okay, in the 1990s. And especially in the 1980s, because there were avenues. There were outlets for things that were original or authentic, or strange or unique. You know there were more bookstores and record stores and zines and magazines, venues, and even places on the Internet, especially up until the 2010 for alternative thought and alternative music. And slowly, those have all been killed. And so, I think in this day and age it’s really difficult to be authentic, because as an artist, if you are doing something that’s incredibly unique and authentic you’re not going to get to be a Kurt Cobain. You’re probably going to be broke, or no one’s going to see your music, or like, instead of looking at your reel of your music, they’re going to switch over to a video of a dog.

He would have been against it, he would have been very against that.

Yeah, I do think we’re more aware of how capitalism works. But we don’t necessarily try to fight it or end it. I think we’ve all kind of collectively given up or given in. And I think, like the brilliant thing about capitalism is that it co-opts and spotlights countercultural movements. And it felt like maybe in the early 2010s, especially I’m thinking of Occupy Wall Street, we were starting to get the collective idea of like, oh, capitalism is actually kind of bad. And we started to be like, maybe there should be less capitalism. We had movements like the #MeToo movement and the Black Lives Matter movement, and gay marriage in United States and around the world, things that were considered countercultural or marginalised groups, or like feminism, especially.

We started to see these things rise into the spotlight, and a collective shift of like, oh, actually, these things are things that we should get behind. And I think it was, you know, capitalism or the people who run it saying “let’s take all of the things that make these people upset and highlight them and bring them into capitalism”. And now our relationship with our rights and our freedom is really married to capitalism in a way that, like somewhere along the lines, we started to believe that if we could just make a little bit more money we could be free instead of thinking like that as a structure should come down. And so, I think that’s a big part of what has killed countercultural movements and has killed a lot of the proliferation of art. Because we’re not so attached to the idea of being different, and not having money being maybe a virtue. Now the virtue is like, I just need a little bit more. 

I’m in California right now, yes.

No, it’s great. I’m like, I’m a cultural critic now.

No, it’s okay. Actually, I think this is what I would have liked if I wasn’t a musician, I probably would have gone into cultural criticism, but I don’t know. My answer to that changes every year. The answer is obviously yes. We are more aware of these things. But the problem is that absent from the discourse is real critical thought around capitalism. And I think that we have this idea that we can like change the world if we just change like the way black people, queer people or women are treated, and it’s actually just not true. I don’t think it’s true until we have, like a real shift away from hyper-capitalism. I think that’s what a lot of like Malcom X used to talk about that. And I think Martin Luther King, even in in his last days was starting to talk more about like, okay, what are we gonna do about capitalism!? And then it was like, whoa, hold on! We’re still poor. We can’t. Let’s give us a shot first. So, I think we are more aware. But I don’t think it has helped us, because we also have a rise in right wing thought around the world, right? Like you look at Norway, look at Argentina, look at Brazil, look at America, the United Kingdom, like around the world.

Yeah, I think that the more we highlight these issues of diversity we see a return in the rise of people who are against it, and so has it made our world a better place? Some people would say yes. I don’t know, personally.

Yeah, thank you for saying that. That was the other thought I had. I think you know, if whether or not we are more aware than we were 18 years ago, I think that is the Internet what makes it seem like we are. But, actually, the Internet really just shows you what you are interested in. It’s not real. Which is why I like living in North Carolina because I can see the real Unite States, not just the cities where the entertainment industries are, where, like everyone is a fake liberal. I think I get to really interact with real people and see like, wow, everyone’s talking about feminism today... not actually, they’re not.

I’ve wanted to do what I do since I was 7 years old, and I’ve always known what the path for my life would be like, since I was really very young.

No (laughs).

I would say 50%. Right down the middle. I achieved all of the things that I set out to achieve and I’m very proud of myself. But all the plans I made for my life in my career were in an entirely different landscape, and I didn’t expect that independent media would die. And I think I based a lot of like the plans for my career around the fact that independent media and counterculture was thriving. And so, I feel really grateful that I came up when I did. I feel like I was one of the last artists to really come up before everything was about the Internet. My career started, kind of 10 years ago, like playing shows live around Los Angeles, and that’s just not a very common story for people anymore. So, I am happy with what I’ve done. And I’m really proud of myself. And I think it’s like a weird miracle. But I’m not really happy with the state of the arts. And now I’m just like rethinking what the approach is going forward. So, it’s I guess it’s 50/50.

I don’t find it weird. I do think it’s strange, but I don’t personally find it weird – that doesn’t bother me or make me feel strange. It also doesn’t really comfort me like I think my relationship with public life is that I don’t really let it affect me too much. Sometimes I think it will make me feel good, there’s still an audience there sending something like it makes me feel there’s people listening. But overall, it doesn’t really affect me, because I think that if you let the positive comments in then you also have to let the negative comments in. That’s how I think. I think if you live by praise, you’ll die by criticism. So, I don’t engage, I’ll read them, and then I forget what they said. Basically.

Thank you. I have thought about it, sort of, but I don’t know enough. I think I would love to write a book one day, maybe like a book of essays, but I definitely need to read more. I’m always like, I had this thought, and it’s so unique. And I don’t know if anyone’s ever thought it. And then I read, and I’m like, okay, most things have been thought of (laughs). I think if I wasn’t in music I probably would have pursued writing and cultural criticism, but it also would have required a lot of studying. So yeah, maybe one day, if I get more time. I’d like to educate myself more.

It’s a really good question. I would say the autobiography of Malcolm X was a really big one, and my kind of like shift to consciousness. Malcolm X is probably one of my favourite cultural figures.

I’m reading a book now that I love so much it’s called Stay True, by Hua Hsu. He’s a brilliant cultural critic and essayist, and it’s just about his life, and friendship, and it’s just beautifully written. And I think it has a lot to say about identity. I’m trying to think of at least one other book that I’ve loved. I had a list at one point, but I would probably say James Baldwin’s Giovanni’s Room is a really good one. 

MS: No, I haven’t. But I would love to be forced to shut the fuck up ’cause I definitely need to.

I would love to do a silent retreat or something. But you know what, actually when I’m home in North Carolina I don’t really talk to people that much unless I have meetings, but sometimes I’ll go a whole day and just be like, I haven’t used my voice today, or I haven’t really talked to anyone, but I’m always singing. Anyone who knows me knows I’m always singing or humming, and I don’t realise that I’m doing it. But I take care of my voice, by doing exercises. I actually do try not to talk too much, not to talk too loudly, and I started taking vocal lessons last year for the first time in my life, because I do want to know how to take care of my voice. I do warmups and exercises. I try to do them every day and I don’t really drink much. If I know I have to sing I won’t drink for like 2 weeks before then, but I think going forward, I’m probably just going to quit drinking altogether. I’m not a big drinker. I don’t smoke. I’ve never smoked in my life.

I just never did it, so I don’t have to quit.

Hmm. I’m not sure. I’m not convinced, like the conversation online is loud, because it’s also being silenced at the same time, like we don’t control the means. I think that we forget that the only things that we can control are our bodies. And the idea of having a platform I think it’s real, but it also it can be taken away at any moment, so I’m just not convinced by it. But I will say I don’t think it’s too loud, because we forget at any moment we can turn off our phones, and the entire thing goes away not everybody has that privilege now to be clear, like some people obviously live in places where the material situation of their reality dictates their lives. But I think for most of us if we turn our phones off, the conversation is not loud. It’s actually not even happening.

Oh, I would love to have a family, I would love to still be making work, but doing whatever I want without worrying about answers. I would love to have a house in Italy. I love Italy. I wanna have a little place there. I’d also love to have a house in Ghana. I wanna be really hot and look the same, to be honest (laughs) I don’t know.

Thank you, Antonio. You’ve been great!

One day, and when I do, I will come visit Malaga.